Day 15 of 30 Days of Guardian: Villain whose redemption you liked (a.k.a. the Ye Zun rant post)

[cyberbrain]

Ever since I wrote something embarrassingly unkinky for the kinkmeme my thoughts have been stuck on Ye Zun. I really like him. He's a great villain. I wish he'd gotten more screen time. I wish Merit Brush Guy had been written better and his arc–over faster, so there would be more time for Ye Zun. I really love him. He's so interesting.

I need to sort through my thoughts on him before I can continue my life writing. Fuck, I've been trying to write this post for a week.


I'll be honest, I don't know where to start... and this post might end-up being rambly. I'm sorry.

My biggest issue with Ye Zun is that I don't know how to treat him. He's done some really terrible shit–I can't just let him run around happy with no repercussions.

Except.

Ye Zun has been through a fuckton of shit. From being a sickly child left alone with only a slightly older child to fend for themselves in a harsh world to being lied to and abused to being imprisoned for millennia. Not being cared for. Not being given love.

Is it fair to expect, to demand, him to be better?

I think–for the purpose of effective character design and engaging storytelling–No.

I like Ye Zun because he is imperfect. He is deeply flawed. Perhaps even calling him broken would be an understatement.

But I want to fix him. Fandom is my happy place. I love writing because it lets me do anything. But this is where the problem starts with Ye Zun–I have no flippin' idea what to do with him.

My instinct is to write him happy, to put him in a space full of love, to make sure the only pain he feels is from how hard he's grinning in nothing but joy. And, sure, I can put him in the happy place, but that wouldn't scratch my itch, which is to fix things effectively for him and those around him (meaning Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan).

Does Ye Zun deserve happiness?

...I can't bring myself to say no.

This is where this post's title comes into play–redemption. It wasn't much of a redemption, honestly; more of an explanation. But it served its purpose. Taking the episode 40 infodump into account, Ye Zun had his reasons and they weren't entirely illogical.

But did he go too far? Probably. Does that matter? I'm not sure.

Does he deserve forgiveness and peace after an exceptionally long life of suffering? ...I think he does. I like angst, sure, but more than that, it turns out, I like comfort. I want to fix things, to mend the broken ones, to give love to the characters that were given nowhere near enough.

Giving love to Ye Zun... I don't know how to do that. Normally, I would do it through shipping; and I want to do that with Ye Zun too... but there's no one for me to reliably ship him with. Shen Wei is the first choice, obviously, but–not even touching on any potential "But that's incest," wank–that breaks weilan and weilan very much must stay intact or I stop having fun. Zhao Yunlan is the second choice, and what I said about Shen Wei applies here too. Everyone else in the show–we weren't told enough about for me to feel ready to say, "That's the one for Ye Zun!" And then there is another option: add Ye Zun to weilan.

Sigh. I'm not against the idea, I even like it (in theory). But so far, I haven't been able to come up with a way to make the dynamic work. Not in a post-canon Everyone lives, Nobody dies AU, at least. Of course, it doesn't need to be a romantic or sexual relationship but the same problems still stand. 

How do I even begin fixing that? How do I ease the hurt he's caused Zhao Yunlan? How do I repair the trust that Shen Wei has undoubtedly lost in him? What about Ye Zun's trust in Shen Wei and humanity in general? And what of the world's people's feelings? What if they learned their heroes were involved with their enemy?

I would have liked a better "redemption" sequence for Ye Zun. A milder ending would have made this all so much easier... But I can't say with certainty if I would have preferred a milder, better, ending. After all, it's because of all this hurt, that I'm so engaged.

What is the proper way to treat the man who wanted to end the world because he was lied to?

There's the theory of Ye Zun possibly being mind-controlled by the rebel leader as that was his power according to Fu You (episode 34, start from 34:50). And that paired with plain psychological manipulation and abuse (also physical abuse) is a perfect recipe for tragedy.

So what do I do with Ye Zun?...

Let's examine a different, less severe, case first, though. What about Bucky Barnes from Captain America?

In Civil War, he laments, "I don't know if I'm worth all this, Steve."
"What you did all those years... It wasn't you. You didn't have a choice," Steve Rogers, pure boy with a heart of the purest gold, tells him.
And the heart-wrenching reply is: "I know. But I did it."

So what can be said of Ye Zun then?

Even if I absolve him of his crimes by saying it's not his fault, what is left? How would he feel? How would he think? Learning he'd been lied to seemed to go over well, but what about after that? What about those ten thousand years of being stuck in a pillar alone? Wouldn't his thoughts cycle habitually on his pain?

I feel an extensive answer is needed for all these questions and I'm so mad at myself for not being able to provide it.

Is it possible for Ye Zun to even be good?

Here's the thing–maybe there's still some hope in humanity or childish naivete left in me but, god-fucking-damn it–I want to believe there is good in everyone. Ye Zun included. So I want to fix this; to create happiness where there was none.

...So. Villain whose redemption you liked. Ye Zun's is not very good, definitely could have been handled better. And yet, it works and prompts so much thoughts and ideas, I can't help but be drawn to it and like it.

Comments

[starandrea]

I enjoyed reading this tremendously. ♥

[cyberbrain]

<3

[extrapenguin]

Your Ye Zun thoughts are mine! (Well, then I went the way of the serial crackshipper. *g*) He was given enough shit that it's not really fair to expect him to figure out how to be a good person on his own. However, he can still listen and change his mind if in suitable circumstances, as proven by the post-death sequence in episode 40.

My favorite thing to do with him is canon divergence. Either Zhao Yunlan gets a hook into him and uses psychological jujitsu to prod and prod until the root is discovered, or a conversation with Shen Wei goes a different direction with more productive yelling and accusations, or, hell, he tries to menace Doctor Cheng and she introduces him to therapy in a desperate attempt to wait for the cavalry's arrival, thus accidentally saving the world. Post-canon one would have to take a longer route. I do think Shen Wei sees Ye Zun as his responsibility, so if they reconcile and Ye Zun stops destroying the world, he'd advocate for a solution where Ye Zun gets to live. That solution would probably involve being locked up in a psychiatric institution for a long time.

And then Ye Zun would have to do some actual reformation, instead of just "oops, gege didn't abandon me after all!" With the powers he's accumulated, I suppose at least some things are fixable, and of course he can undo all the mind control, but ... well. He still killed a bunch of people. Those he ate, one can handwave out with the Hallows, I guess? (And Ye Zun is a Hallows expert, so this would be a good project for him.)

Shipping-wise, I enjoy the weilan + Ye Zun threesome, as well as weilan plus Ye Zun as the live-in brother-in-law who's suspiciously close to his brother, as well as Ye Zun with Zhu Jiu. Mostly I think I just want Ye Zun to have his brother's love, whatever shape that love might be.

[cyberbrain]

Yup, literally everything you said–spot on!

My favorite thing to do with him is canon divergence.
Mine too. It's so much easier to fix then, so much less painful.

he tries to menace Doctor Cheng and she introduces him to therapy
Hee! This is delightful! <3

That solution would probably involve being locked up in a psychiatric institution for a long time.
Probably... Though, I feel some resistance to the idea–what Haixing institution would be able to keep him and help and not abuse him meanwhile?
I'd go the route of mandated therapy–just force him to sit with Doctor Cheng for a couple of hours every week and live with weilan. All of their efforts together should be able to help him.

Ye Zun with Zhu Jiu
Ah yes. That's a cool ship too ^^

I think I just want Ye Zun to have his brother's love, whatever shape that love might be.
That's it! In episode 40 it looked like Ye Zun definitely did have Shen Wei's love. Why didn't we get a cute brotherly hug?! ｡ﾟ･ (>﹏<) ･ﾟ｡

[extrapenguin]

Honestly, I sort of want to start a series of canon divergence fics where more and more improbable people catalyze a brotherly reconciliation, from Zhao Yunlan all the way down to ... let's go with Mi Lu the illusion girl accidentally making her boss give up every evil plan to go cuddle his gege, that would be funny.

what Haixing institution would be able to keep him and help and not abuse him meanwhile?
I'd go the route of mandated therapy–just force him to sit with Doctor Cheng for a couple of hours every week and live with weilan. All of their efforts together should be able to help him.

(To clarify, by secure psychiatric institution I mean mandatory therapy but kept away from the public. I realize now that the definition probably varies by jurisdiction.) If we're going post-canon, Ye Zun's done enough harm that I don't think the powers that be are willing to let him wander around unsupervised/let him stay anywhere except under lockdown circumstances. As a ficwriter, I can wave my magic hand and declare that the institution, equipped with power-suppressing bracelets straight out of Lin Jing's workshop, is excellent for handling him, though that's more of a measure for getting Ye Zun offscreen in an eventually-happy way than a way to get Ye Zun into the fic. I agree that living with mostly-functional people who care about each other and him as well would help a lot, though that's more of an option for canon divergence to take – or something Ye Zun graduates to from the psychiatric institution, after Zhao Yunlan's temper has cooled and Shen Wei's started missing his didi? Anyway, lots of stuff to mull over for fic. Do you have any favorite canon divergence points/methods, or perhaps fic recs?

That's it! In episode 40 it looked like Ye Zun definitely did have Shen Wei's love. Why didn't we get a cute brotherly hug?! ｡ﾟ･ (>﹏<) ･ﾟ｡
I know! Let Shen Wei have his brother back! This show didn't provide us with nearly enough hugs. *g* At least we got the brotherly handgrasp...

[cyberbrain]

I sort of want to start a series of canon divergence fics where more and more improbable people catalyze a brotherly reconciliation
That's a brilliant idea!

I realize now that the definition probably varies by jurisdiction.
Yes, it definitely does. This is on me, though, I read "psychiatric institution" and immediately applied "psychiatric hospital" as the meaning. I mean mandatory therapy but kept away from the public, we were probably talking about the same thing then :)

If we're going post-canon, Ye Zun's done enough harm that I don't think the powers that be are willing to let him wander around unsupervised/let him stay anywhere except under lockdown circumstances.
(Well, for this post I was focused on canon as-is, which meant that if I wanted to fix things, I had to think about post-canon.)
Yes, that's the thing, he's done enough harm and can't be allowed to go free. For me, "the powers that be" are basically Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan because no one else is strong enough to stand against Ye Zun. So, the way I see it, they would keep him close to watch him and in the meantime provide support and be an example of a healthy life. While doing that he can go to therapy.
Of course, there're many ways to approach the subject.

Do you have any favorite canon divergence points/methods,
Definitely. I think in episode 38 would be best–after weilan run from the Palace and Shen Wei falls over and they have their talk, instead of Shen Wei staying to fight and be dramatic, he does what they agreed on with Zhao Yunlan–goes to the portal; they regroup in Haixing, hide, rest, heal, eventually a final fight where no one dies. That point in time would let canon events happen while conveniently stopping before Ye Zun has done anything that would be hard to forgive.
Or episode 39 before Shen Wei gets vored.
Or somewhen in YOHE Zhao Yunlan can maybe do something to help save Ye Zun.

or perhaps fic recs?
Yup. Though, I gotta say I haven't read the entire Guardian English fic tag.
ratbones' Flesh from Bone, Soul from Flesh comes pretty close to what I want to see in a post-canon story featuring Ye Zun. Also the part 2 follow-up is so, so cute.
umadoshi's the strange idea of continuous living is weilan-centric but I like the take on Ye Zun's power.
sarahyyy's my heart broke loose on the wind is a light-hearted modern AU gem. It's also weilan-centric but Ye Zun is wonderful.
eliza's Longing for a Foothold shows some of Ye Zun's duality toward Shen Wei (care and hatred) and I love it.
Reccomedning your own fic to you probably isn't useful but your Overwritable is super cute and nice too.

And then self promo, there's the way that I fixed the drama ending, posted over at the kinkmeme.
Warning: spoilers. It's one way to deal with things, I guess, and I mostly like it except for the fact I killed Ye Zun. Though, shortly after posting it I was hit with an idea how to bring Ye Zun back into the picture and my beta reader helped flesh it out better, without making Ye Zun overpowered or removing (much of?) the weight of events... but I still haven't written that continuation. Actually, that was precisely the reason I wanted to make this post–to hopefully free up my mind and get back to fic writing.

[extrapenguin]

Yes, that's the thing, he's done enough harm and can't be allowed to go free. For me, "the powers that be" are basically Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan because no one else is strong enough to stand against Ye Zun. So, the way I see it, they would keep him close to watch him and in the meantime provide support and be an example of a healthy life. While doing that he can go to therapy.
Oh, huh! Shen Wei's in charge of Dixing and doesn't report to anyone, yeah, but Zhao Yunlan reports to Minister Gao and those higher up the chain, so while his opinion would weigh heavily, any solution would need to also go past Minister Gao and Zhao Xinci. But yes, therapy is necessary.

I think in episode 38 would be best–after weilan run from the Palace and Shen Wei falls over and they have their talk, instead of Shen Wei staying to fight and be dramatic, he does what they agreed on with Zhao Yunlan–goes to the portal; they regroup in Haixing, hide, rest, heal, eventually a final fight where no one dies. That point in time would let canon events happen while conveniently stopping before Ye Zun has done anything that would be hard to forgive.
I don't think I have come across this point yet! Ooh. Ye Zun's still murdered a bunch of people, though I guess the one thing Zhao Yunlan can never forgive is Shen Wei voring.

Or somewhen in YOHE Zhao Yunlan can maybe do something to help save Ye Zun.
I like this! I've toyed with an idea where the Hallows drop Zhao Yunlan onto bb Ye Zun in YOHE, but haven't gone anywhere with. Hmm...

Ty for the recs! I really enjoyed ratbones' fic, so I'm anticipating the rest! (And I'm glad Overwritable worked for you. <3) I'm also gathering a reclist to go with my Ye Zun character focus post on sid_guardian; I counted and realized I'd written one quarter of the Ye Zun without weilan fic on AO3...

[cyberbrain]

Zhao Yunlan reports to Minister Gao and those higher up the chain, so while his opinion would weigh heavily, any solution would need to also go past Minister Gao and Zhao Xinci
Ah, that's right! This is a very good point.
I admit I didn't consider the people above Zhao Yunlan in government because I have a (too) strong belief in his willingness to disobey. He's already shown us that if he disagrees with what he's being told to do, he'll go against it. Granted, I'm mostly basing this belief on Zhao Yunlan's relationship with his father and his failing to listen to Shen Wei but... it's how I read his character–once he's decided on doing something, there's no way to stop him.

Ye Zun's still murdered a bunch of people, though I guess the one thing Zhao Yunlan can never forgive is Shen Wei voring.
Pretty much, yeah. It's a way to keep things serious and heavy but depending on how far the writer wants to go and fix, maybe it's possible to bring some of the murdered ones back. Shen Wei managed it, maybe Ye Zun can decide to spit them out?

I counted and realized I'd written one quarter of the Ye Zun without weilan fic on AO3
That's really awe-inspiring (☆▽☆)

[extrapenguin]

He's already shown us that if he disagrees with what he's being told to do, he'll go against it. Granted, I'm mostly basing this belief on Zhao Yunlan's relationship with his father and his failing to listen to Shen Wei but... it's how I read his character–once he's decided on doing something, there's no way to stop him.
Oh, definitely! I just think Ye Zun confinement would be high-enough profile that he'd be under a lot of pressure from above, ever after ~episode 36. He'd still use the interpretation of the decree he considers most just, mind, but he might not have much room to maneuver.

maybe it's possible to bring some of the murdered ones back. Shen Wei managed it, maybe Ye Zun can decide to spit them out?
I think so! Maybe not Wang Zheng and Sang Zan, as they're energy beings, but anyone else, certainly.

That's really awe-inspiring (☆▽☆)
Well, yes, but also makes putting up a reclist that is not a pile of self-recs very hard...

[china_shop]

Great post!

It wasn't much of a redemption, honestly; more of an explanation.

Yes. Redemption means dealing with the fallout, not walking into the afterlife.

Even if I absolve him of his crimes by saying it's not his fault, what is left? How would he feel? How would he think? Learning he'd been lied to seemed to go over well, but what about after that? What about those ten thousand years of being stuck in a pillar alone? Wouldn't his thoughts cycle habitually on his pain?

This. My problem with Ye Zun is that I never know who he is under (or absent) all the gnarled and knotted vengeance, betrayal and pain, because that's most of what we see. And I don't know what his relationship with Shen Wei is like absent all that, either. I have several WIPs that have stalled because of that. Especially because Ye Zun is so different depending on when you diverge (ie, how traumatised he is).

[cyberbrain]

My problem with Ye Zun is that I never know who he is under (or absent) all the gnarled and knotted vengeance, betrayal and pain, because that's most of what we see.
Yes, same. On one hand, it's freeing, on the other, it's so much freedom that I don't know what to do with it.
Ye Zun can be made to sound however and be whoever is necessary but how does the writer make sure it reads as in character?

And I don't know what his relationship with Shen Wei is like absent all that, either.
That too. But for me this is the easier part; I'd go with estranged and strained but still caring, with Shen Wei being maybe overly-caring and Ye Zun not knowing how to properly show his feelings. Maybe some jealously over the attention Zhao Yunlan gets as well. Really, their relationship can go any way the fic writer wants it to, I think.
The main issue I have with the two of them is that any positive progress would probably take a long time, which would likely mean longfic and I'm not great at that.

[glymr]

I love everything about this post. You've summed it all up so well! I'm currently working on what's promising to be quite a long AU (*sighs*) centered around Ye Zun that somewhat avoids the most difficult of your points. I've struggled with these questions a lot, though - can we justify redeeming him when he's been so awful? Can we justify punishing him when he's been punished so much already? It's a very difficult problem.

My favorite Ye Zun stories are starandrea's and marcicat's recent works, with naye's Twist of the Kaleidoscope and FayJay's Gothic AU strong contenders as well. All of them affected my views of Ye Zun deeply.

[cyberbrain]

I'm really excited about your Ye Zun story!! I'm very interested in how it's going to turn out and how you're going to approach (some?) of these questions/problems. I can't wait!

Thank you for the author+story recs! <3
So far, of these, I've only finished naye's Twist of the Kaleidoscope (it was great!) and it played a major part in my perception of Ye Zun too. I'm now reading starandrea's Reweave Our Lives series (I'm still on part one) and I'm really liking it.

[tinny]

Very very interesting! I don't have a handle on Ye Zun at all (but then I also don't have one on Shen Wei, so maybe not listen to me when it comes to understanding characters ;D).

But I don't usually identify much with villains, and Ye Zun has always fascinated me despite that, and I don't know why.

[cyberbrain]

I don't think I have a handle on Ye Zun either, tbh. I wrote this post hoping to get one and I'm nowhere closer, lmao.

But I don't usually identify much with villains
Me neither, actually. But very often I find the villain to be, if not the most, one of the most interesting characters in a story. With Guardian, I'm still more interested in Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei but there's a specific pull to Ye Zun too.
Zhu Yilong did an amazing job portraying him and I blame my fascination with Ye Zun on him.